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More from Rukis
So for any of you who haven't heard, something really exciting is happening over at Patreon! - http://www.patreon.com/kyellgold
Kyell is writing a brand new sports-themed story, and this time you can read it as he works on it, offer your thoughts over streams with him, and help determine what sorts of artwork and extra goodies you get for it ;)
Kenket and I will be pledging our artistic skills to illustrate the story at certain tiers, and Kyell may write bonus stories in this world, in his other worlds, or. . . possibly even mine ;) I'm not saying it for certain yet, but let's just say we've had talks of him writing in the Red Lantern verse. . . .
So, if these two characters intrigue you, if you're a fan of cross-foxes and jackals in general, or you just love Kyell's work, you should probably go pledge a few bucks a month, and get in on the action. For the price of a crappy fast-food meal, you could instead indulge in jackal/crossfox action. I mean, it seems a pretty obvious choice to me.
Kyell is writing a brand new sports-themed story, and this time you can read it as he works on it, offer your thoughts over streams with him, and help determine what sorts of artwork and extra goodies you get for it ;) 
Kenket and I will be pledging our artistic skills to illustrate the story at certain tiers, and Kyell may write bonus stories in this world, in his other worlds, or. . . possibly even mine ;) I'm not saying it for certain yet, but let's just say we've had talks of him writing in the Red Lantern verse. . . .So, if these two characters intrigue you, if you're a fan of cross-foxes and jackals in general, or you just love Kyell's work, you should probably go pledge a few bucks a month, and get in on the action. For the price of a crappy fast-food meal, you could instead indulge in jackal/crossfox action. I mean, it seems a pretty obvious choice to me.
Category Artwork (Digital) / All
Species Unspecified / Any
Gender Any
Size 614 x 790px
File Size 176.2 kB
YES! *tail wag* I am, in face, eating a crappy fast food meal right now, and I can attest to the fact that it costs me less ($5 a month) to have access to an exclusive story. DO EET!
Great artwork, by the way... looking at their facial expressions makes me think of the few things I already know about these characters, and it definitely makes me want to keep reading and see more art of them!
Great artwork, by the way... looking at their facial expressions makes me think of the few things I already know about these characters, and it definitely makes me want to keep reading and see more art of them!
I think I will get yelled at for this, because I could ask this of multiple artists, but it's about Patreon
Is there any guarantee people aren't simply going to take the money and run? I'm just wondering what the incentive is.
Furthermore, while I don't want to call people outright greedy, don't artists already get money from commissions and so on? I mean, I bought Red Lantern, I quite liked it, but I don't see there being any way you could not have gotten any of the money I paid for it, because you (and Alectorfencer for the first one) made it.
Same with Kyell Gold, though I know you are not him. I bought a few of his books when he was at a furry convention I was at- I handed the money directly over to him, so there's no way he could not have gotten any of my money that I paid him for the books.
Sorry, but I don't know if I understand Patreon :(
I just don't see why I cannot go and commission an artist I like for a picture, when I have the money, and when they're open. I know you, Rukis, don't do commissions, as far as I know, but even still- can't I buy the second Red Lantern when it's out? You can't tell me you don't get any money from it, surely? In fact, I'd be very angry if you didn't, to tell you the truth.
So yeah, it's not a Rukis-specific thing I have to ask, but I do think I need some help from others to explain how and why they use Patreon. It's like it's the 'hip' thing to do, though hey, I'm not good enough at this point to make and sell literary and artistic work for money, so maybe I don't understand it at all? :/
Is there any guarantee people aren't simply going to take the money and run? I'm just wondering what the incentive is.
Furthermore, while I don't want to call people outright greedy, don't artists already get money from commissions and so on? I mean, I bought Red Lantern, I quite liked it, but I don't see there being any way you could not have gotten any of the money I paid for it, because you (and Alectorfencer for the first one) made it.
Same with Kyell Gold, though I know you are not him. I bought a few of his books when he was at a furry convention I was at- I handed the money directly over to him, so there's no way he could not have gotten any of my money that I paid him for the books.
Sorry, but I don't know if I understand Patreon :(
I just don't see why I cannot go and commission an artist I like for a picture, when I have the money, and when they're open. I know you, Rukis, don't do commissions, as far as I know, but even still- can't I buy the second Red Lantern when it's out? You can't tell me you don't get any money from it, surely? In fact, I'd be very angry if you didn't, to tell you the truth.
So yeah, it's not a Rukis-specific thing I have to ask, but I do think I need some help from others to explain how and why they use Patreon. It's like it's the 'hip' thing to do, though hey, I'm not good enough at this point to make and sell literary and artistic work for money, so maybe I don't understand it at all? :/
No one's going to yell at you, but you are misinformed. I don't sell Red Lantern on Patreon. Kyell Gold does not sell his other books on Patreon. We are not posting anything there that is available elsewhere, and asking people to pay for it. If you'd like to continue supporting Red Lantern simply by buying copies of it, that's awesome. That's what most people who watch me (and feel the need to pay for anything) do.
The fact of the matter is, though, it's nearly impossible for an author, even someone who's probably quite literally at the top of their game, like Kyell, to make a living doing what he does in the furry community. 'Royalties', which are what we're paid for our books, are miniscule. Maybe a few thousand a year, if you do WELL. Gas money, if you're lucky. A few car payments. That's it. And that's for the top-sellers. And it's not the fault of the Publishers, furry publishers actually pay incredibly well if you compare them to more mainstream publishers. . . it's just that we sell to a very small fandom, so our numbers aren't high. It's unavoidable. We compensate for this by working other jobs, but working other jobs is why a lot of artists/writers you follow have dropped out of the fandom or simply stopped creating, eventually. The furry fandom is small, so being a creator as anything other than a hobby is extremely difficult to do. And unfortunately, people who write/do art as a hobby don't generally have the time to commit to doing larger projects.
Patreon is for projects that, to put it simply, we can't afford to do without some kind of backing. And it's not new. Artists and writers have been taking donations, doing Kickstarters, and things just like it for a long time. It's because a project like a novel, or a graphic novel, or anything long-term can take months, even years, to complete, and during the creation process we are NOT BEING PAID. This is the main reason a lot of furry projects that have looked really promising over the years have never been completed. We all start with passion, but then life catches up, and we have to go do temp work or beef up on our 9-5 to pay the bills, and that leaves little to no time to finish that project you guys were all really looking forward to.
That being said, although I can't speak for the rest of FA, Kyell and I both offer a metric ton of our stuff FOR FREE, all the time, right here on FA and other sites. I publish about 95% of Red Lantern for free, I put out the entirety of all my novels right here on FA for free, and Kyell did the same with novels like Camouflage. The content we post over at Patreon is FOR Patreon. I have not stopped posting art and writing for free here, as I'm sure you can tell. Most of what patrons get from me at my Patreon is exclusive access to Works In Progress, advance chapters of my books, and physical goods mailed to their homes (like prints and copies of my books). I'm not suddenly stripping content from FA that I've always offered for free and putting it there saying 'There, now you have to pay for it'. . . although in all fairness, if an artist/writer wanted to do that, it is most certainly their right. There seems to be an understanding in this community that if someone has been offering work for free for ages, and suddenly starts asking for people to pay for it, this makes them a BAD person. What it actually makes them is sane. Most people wouldn't clock in for the day at their job and just say 'Eh, I'll work for free today'.
I'm gonna end this with the most obvious statement. . . if you don't want to buy something, don't. You're totally welcome to feel that $5 a month to read a novel as it's being written is too expensive. I happen to disagree, but people have different priorities, and that's cool. Just rest assured that Kyell will keep putting out books you can buy the normal way, and so will I. And if we manage to make a better living now that things like Patreon are available for us to use, how does that negatively impact you? It means we'll be able to commit more time to making the stuff you love, and that stuff WILL be made available the normal way, eventually, so you don't have to hop on the Patreon craze to enjoy it. Just be happy others are. I'm sure you wouldn't begrudge us the chance to live better lives, doing what we do, right? I mean I'm finally able to afford dental care, for the first time in twelve years. It's pretty sweet :)
The fact of the matter is, though, it's nearly impossible for an author, even someone who's probably quite literally at the top of their game, like Kyell, to make a living doing what he does in the furry community. 'Royalties', which are what we're paid for our books, are miniscule. Maybe a few thousand a year, if you do WELL. Gas money, if you're lucky. A few car payments. That's it. And that's for the top-sellers. And it's not the fault of the Publishers, furry publishers actually pay incredibly well if you compare them to more mainstream publishers. . . it's just that we sell to a very small fandom, so our numbers aren't high. It's unavoidable. We compensate for this by working other jobs, but working other jobs is why a lot of artists/writers you follow have dropped out of the fandom or simply stopped creating, eventually. The furry fandom is small, so being a creator as anything other than a hobby is extremely difficult to do. And unfortunately, people who write/do art as a hobby don't generally have the time to commit to doing larger projects.
Patreon is for projects that, to put it simply, we can't afford to do without some kind of backing. And it's not new. Artists and writers have been taking donations, doing Kickstarters, and things just like it for a long time. It's because a project like a novel, or a graphic novel, or anything long-term can take months, even years, to complete, and during the creation process we are NOT BEING PAID. This is the main reason a lot of furry projects that have looked really promising over the years have never been completed. We all start with passion, but then life catches up, and we have to go do temp work or beef up on our 9-5 to pay the bills, and that leaves little to no time to finish that project you guys were all really looking forward to.
That being said, although I can't speak for the rest of FA, Kyell and I both offer a metric ton of our stuff FOR FREE, all the time, right here on FA and other sites. I publish about 95% of Red Lantern for free, I put out the entirety of all my novels right here on FA for free, and Kyell did the same with novels like Camouflage. The content we post over at Patreon is FOR Patreon. I have not stopped posting art and writing for free here, as I'm sure you can tell. Most of what patrons get from me at my Patreon is exclusive access to Works In Progress, advance chapters of my books, and physical goods mailed to their homes (like prints and copies of my books). I'm not suddenly stripping content from FA that I've always offered for free and putting it there saying 'There, now you have to pay for it'. . . although in all fairness, if an artist/writer wanted to do that, it is most certainly their right. There seems to be an understanding in this community that if someone has been offering work for free for ages, and suddenly starts asking for people to pay for it, this makes them a BAD person. What it actually makes them is sane. Most people wouldn't clock in for the day at their job and just say 'Eh, I'll work for free today'.
I'm gonna end this with the most obvious statement. . . if you don't want to buy something, don't. You're totally welcome to feel that $5 a month to read a novel as it's being written is too expensive. I happen to disagree, but people have different priorities, and that's cool. Just rest assured that Kyell will keep putting out books you can buy the normal way, and so will I. And if we manage to make a better living now that things like Patreon are available for us to use, how does that negatively impact you? It means we'll be able to commit more time to making the stuff you love, and that stuff WILL be made available the normal way, eventually, so you don't have to hop on the Patreon craze to enjoy it. Just be happy others are. I'm sure you wouldn't begrudge us the chance to live better lives, doing what we do, right? I mean I'm finally able to afford dental care, for the first time in twelve years. It's pretty sweet :)
Rukis said it more eloquently, but I'll toss in my two cents here.
When I was setting up this Patreon, I was struggling with that too. "People can buy my books for $20; why would they pay even $5 a month over a year or two?" But I realized that when *I* supported artists on Patreon or Kickstarter, I wasn't thinking of the final cost. For example, I'm supporting an artist to the tune of $2 per comic page for a graphic novel; that will work out to $160 for an 80-page graphic novel. I'm *clearly* not doing it because it's the cheapest way to get the story. I'm doing it because I really like their work, I want to toss them a little more money, and on a monthly basis it's not a big deal to do that.
If you want the cheapest way to read "Love Match," I can almost guarantee it'll be out as a print/e-book when it's done. You can drop a tenner on the Kindle version and get the story and whatever the final illos are. But there are some people who want to support me and Rukis, and if people are willing to toss a little bit in to help us cover more monthly expenses, we'll do some extra stuff like chats, bonus stories, extra artwork, anything to give back. Speaking personally, the level the Patreon is at now, if it sustains even at half this rate, will be an enormous help to me in meeting expenses next year, and it'll mean I don't have to go look for other paying outlets, write more commercially salable stories, things like that. I have an okay income from my existing books, but as Rukis said, when you're a creator trying to live off your creations, every little bit helps. I'm really grateful to the people who have chipped in and will try to make sure they feel properly appreciated. :)
And if that's not your thing, that's totally cool. I mean, I have five thousand Twitter followers, a few hundred more dedicated people who follow my mailing list. Rukis has thousands of fans as well. As of today, we don't even have fifty people supporting the Patreon. Some can't afford it, some just aren't interested. For buying Rukis's art, for buying my books, we are very grateful, and we know there are only a few people who will want to be a little more supportive.
Hope that helps make things a little more clear?
When I was setting up this Patreon, I was struggling with that too. "People can buy my books for $20; why would they pay even $5 a month over a year or two?" But I realized that when *I* supported artists on Patreon or Kickstarter, I wasn't thinking of the final cost. For example, I'm supporting an artist to the tune of $2 per comic page for a graphic novel; that will work out to $160 for an 80-page graphic novel. I'm *clearly* not doing it because it's the cheapest way to get the story. I'm doing it because I really like their work, I want to toss them a little more money, and on a monthly basis it's not a big deal to do that.
If you want the cheapest way to read "Love Match," I can almost guarantee it'll be out as a print/e-book when it's done. You can drop a tenner on the Kindle version and get the story and whatever the final illos are. But there are some people who want to support me and Rukis, and if people are willing to toss a little bit in to help us cover more monthly expenses, we'll do some extra stuff like chats, bonus stories, extra artwork, anything to give back. Speaking personally, the level the Patreon is at now, if it sustains even at half this rate, will be an enormous help to me in meeting expenses next year, and it'll mean I don't have to go look for other paying outlets, write more commercially salable stories, things like that. I have an okay income from my existing books, but as Rukis said, when you're a creator trying to live off your creations, every little bit helps. I'm really grateful to the people who have chipped in and will try to make sure they feel properly appreciated. :)
And if that's not your thing, that's totally cool. I mean, I have five thousand Twitter followers, a few hundred more dedicated people who follow my mailing list. Rukis has thousands of fans as well. As of today, we don't even have fifty people supporting the Patreon. Some can't afford it, some just aren't interested. For buying Rukis's art, for buying my books, we are very grateful, and we know there are only a few people who will want to be a little more supportive.
Hope that helps make things a little more clear?
I am not angry at you or Rukis. I should apologise to you both if I came across that way. You are people that I respect and admire. I bought Volle from you online, and I bought The Prisoner's Release and Pendant of Fortune from you personally at ConFuzzled 2013, when you were one of the guests of honour. I held the belief in my heart that while I would find the books enjoyable (and I did), that the money would go to support you in future efforts. I know that I cannot make much of a difference alone, though, but I like to think that every little helps.
Ultimately, I am frustrated that from what Rukis said, the royalties you get from your creations do not seem to be enough, or seem to only barely be enough. I think that if we lived in an ideal world, that should not happen, and you wouldn't have to end up asking for money- I don't think either of you ask for money out of being avaricious This is why I feel angry- it is not your or Rukis, but the system. In that respect, it makes crowdfunding to me seem like it's a necessary evil. Personally speaking, I do not like asking others for money, so maybe my perspective is distorted?
So yes, I apologise to you both, because I do not think this is a good way to treat either of your, despite me trying to be as mature as I can. You know, without typing swear words, writing in all caps to express anger, and so on. Having said all this, I wish you both luck and success. I will personally not make any concrete promises what I will get, because we all have our different tastes, but I will definitely buy something from either or both of you that I've saved up for, and seems appealing to my tastes- you can be sure of that.
I am honoured that you both took the time to speak to me, considering you are both likely busy, and I thank you both very much. I wish you luck and success.
Ultimately, I am frustrated that from what Rukis said, the royalties you get from your creations do not seem to be enough, or seem to only barely be enough. I think that if we lived in an ideal world, that should not happen, and you wouldn't have to end up asking for money- I don't think either of you ask for money out of being avaricious This is why I feel angry- it is not your or Rukis, but the system. In that respect, it makes crowdfunding to me seem like it's a necessary evil. Personally speaking, I do not like asking others for money, so maybe my perspective is distorted?
So yes, I apologise to you both, because I do not think this is a good way to treat either of your, despite me trying to be as mature as I can. You know, without typing swear words, writing in all caps to express anger, and so on. Having said all this, I wish you both luck and success. I will personally not make any concrete promises what I will get, because we all have our different tastes, but I will definitely buy something from either or both of you that I've saved up for, and seems appealing to my tastes- you can be sure of that.
I am honoured that you both took the time to speak to me, considering you are both likely busy, and I thank you both very much. I wish you luck and success.
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